Talk:Balrogs
I was looking through some stuff and I am sorry, but I don't think Susymog is a balrog, and Maroch may or may not be, I think Ordainers were considered magical, not fiery right? I'll remove Susymog since he is not a balrog. He is all fur. Moran half valar (talk) 23:11, October 6, 2016 (UTC) :Well in that MERP Book, I believe it was Calenhad, he was considered a Balrog.Susymog... you could be right about him.Difficult with all those Balrogs... Durlhach in Northern Waste is called a Balrog as are Felagrog/Durinsbane, Maroch, Muul Baas and Múar. However I think it sounds not very likely that a second Age Dwarf King and mannish Lord slay a Balrog as mighty as the one Gandalf faced... so I´d like to think of both these as lesser Firedemons rather than Lords. Carrog is called a fire Demon, not a Balrog but with Mourfuin its not completely sure, but i`d rather like to see him as a lesser Demon too.Same with Leshy, Razarac and Magurgoth... they are actually compared to Balrogs but they don't seem to be actual Balrogs in the close sense.Then there's Thaurlach... I´m not really sure about him.Same with Gwathnor, but he seems to be clearly a lesser Firedemon (15 levels below Durinsbane), though not of the Rogmul kind.If we follow MERP we already have seven Balrogs, eigth if we include LOTROs Thaurlach and nine if we count the one slain by Glorfindel.Definitely too many of those guys still running around in the third age giventhe statement that most of them had been banished or destroyed after the Fall of Angband and there were no more than seven Great Ones.--Haerangil (talk) 00:15, October 7, 2016 (UTC) You are right Haerangil, what about Morloch though? The one that was bodyguard to Kadaena? Moran half valar (talk) 03:22, October 7, 2016 (UTC) :Yes, but he isn't called a Balrog. What is an Ordainer anyway? An Ordainer is a Judge, or somebody ordained to a holy (or unholy?) position so I guess Greater Ordainer is more of a Rank than a separate Race or Form of Demon. Morloch is, as far as i recall, never actually called a Balrog or even fire-demon. By the Way I always got the impression that the Balrogs are more or less incarnaions of War and destruction rather than Beings who would be into ruling over others of political schemes.Even the Balrog of Moria does seem to have been happy running around, wreaking havoc rather than building up a little empire for himself.So I guess Morgoth was lucky to have Sauron by his side who was a bit smarter and not simply into destroying everything (okay he had Fankil, Langon and Kuruki... but they just weren't the same caliber).I say lets try to keep up the idea with only seven true Balrogs and a bit of a greater number of Balrog-servants or lesser Fire-demons.Seven: Gothmog, Lungorthin and five more... certainly Durinsbane and the one Glorfindel fought, makes four so we have three more missing.Durlach and Maroch are two more, adding fanfic Uru and we have seven.Raumo, Lungorthin, Gothmog and Durinsbane are slain... Durlhach is semi-bound and Maroch abandoned his physical shape to escape his persecutors.Makes one Balrog left of whose fate we are not asure.We should keep it a mystery as it would give Game Masters any freedom to use him wherever they'd need one of the seven. --Haerangil (talk) 04:25, October 7, 2016 (UTC) I agree with Seven being the main number and just put whoever you want on that. As for being mindless creature's of destruction, I disagree full heartidly. Gothmog led armies suggesting more than just brute force, the Balrogs also rescued Morgoth and heard his call for help, if they were just mindless forces of destruction, they would have ignored the call, and lastly, Balrogs are intelligent Maiar, Gandalf shows us this when facing Durin's Bane when he states his lines: "I am a servant of the secret fire wielder of the flame of anor, dark fire will not avail you flame of udun!" He is revealing to the Balrog that he is a Maiar in human form (Istari). If Balrogs are mindless, then Gandalf would have known about it and he wouldn't have stated that line. Moran half valar (talk) 02:09, October 8, 2016 (UTC) :I would'nt call them mindless, but Gothmog never was much of a stretegist. He might have led Morgoth's armies, but he never seems to have been a far-sighted general, far more a butcher.--Haerangil (talk) 05:18, October 8, 2016 (UTC) When commanding armies you have to have a good sense of Finite Tactics, Grand Tactics, and Tactics. The strategy part was more for Sauron and Morgoth naturally--but as stated, Gothmog is no mere brute, he is very intelligent as the three things I listed above require discipline, accuracy, and knowledge to learn. Moran half valar (talk) 13:45, October 8, 2016 (UTC) :I see little in the published Text to support your reading. Everytime Morgoths armies use actual tactics it's seemingly a plot from high above, probably from Morgoth or Sauron, all the Balrogs do is slaughter and destroy everything and sacrifice their own troops for little reason.If I had to compare them to real-life generals I'd have to reach out far back to barbarian Warrior-Kings from myth, Berserkers and archaic Champions who led their armies as Spearheads into battle-rage.--Haerangil (talk) 15:35, October 8, 2016 (UTC) Based on readings, I highly doubt that the orcs governed themselves on the battlefield without Balrog intervintion. I mean you did put Lungorthin as a Captain, and there have been numerous instances where it can be inferred that the Balrogs were apt generals. There is more to support this claim than not given their history as Maiar, Gothmog's own innate story, and the fact that Tolkien based a lot of his warfare on his real life encounters during WWI. Moran half valar (talk) 15:50, October 8, 2016 (UTC) : I can't really see why you got that impression.In fact i always had the impression that they in fact DO command themselves on the Battlefield.There are Greater Orcs, and perhaps Boldogs and Glaurung makes an appearance as a quite autonomous Warlord, and there's Sauron always hiding in the back pulling the strings... but i never really got the impression that Balrogs actually are doing government tasks or are really involved in more complicated tactical or planning, I mean I never imagined Morgoth like cesar, sitting on a table with his generals and any of these was a Balrog.All scenes of Orcs in the SIL and HoME I can think of are occasions where Orcs are led by Orc-Captains (with the exception of Glaurung and Sauron)--Haerangil (talk) 00:22, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Wait you are talking Grand Strategy and Strategy with the Morgoth/Caesar thing, I don't see Balrogs as having great competency in that either. No, I only said that Tactically, Grand Tactically, and Finite Tactically they are extremely good. Thousands of years as warrior spirits will do that to ya. Moran half valar (talk) 00:45, October 9, 2016 (UTC) :I'll wholeheartedly disagree.It makes you a nihilist, which the Balrogs certainly are.Morgoth and Sauron always have the greater thing in mind, a can't see that with any of the Balrogs, certainly not with Gothmog and Durin's Bane who are the only two of whom we know a little bit more.--Haerangil (talk) 17:18, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Again that is your opinion, all of the servants of Morgoth suffer from Nihilism. As stated before, there is more evidence in support of the Balrog's generalship than not. Moran half valar (talk) 17:26, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Also, Raumo or Maroch should be the weakest of the Balrog lords. :Maroch or Durlhach should be weakest.I don't want to lessen Glorfindels feat.--Haerangil (talk) 22:00, October 9, 2016 (UTC) Durlach is an 80th level, he is the weakest as far as hand to hand, he is a better mage however, so Maroch then is probably the weakest, only a 49+ lvl in the book but he has access to 50th level spells... Moran half valar (talk) 00:11, October 10, 2016 (UTC)